Re: [Fedora Board issue tracker] #182: GNOME 3.12 pushes Google and other commercial, non-FOSS "apps" at users

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#182: GNOME 3.12 pushes Google and other commercial, non-FOSS "apps" at users
----------------------------+-----------------------
 Reporter:  sparks          |       Owner:  somebody
     Type:  defect          |      Status:  new
 Priority:  major           |   Milestone:
Component:  Fedora Project  |  Resolution:
 Keywords:                  |  Blocked By:
 Blocking:                  |
----------------------------+-----------------------

Comment (by rdieter):

 Josh called me out for referencing a non-public irc conversation, so after
 getting everyone's permission, here's the #fedora-advisory-board log.


 {{{
 [04/09/14 07:04] <number80> mmm, I still don't have access to the board
 trac :/
 [04/09/14 07:04] * number80 wants to follow the gnome shell proprietary
 services integration ticket
 [04/09/14 07:05] <number80> rbergeron: you registered me on the board-
 private m-l, not on the trac ;)
 [04/09/14 08:06] <Sparks> number80: If you're keeping up with the FESCo
 ticket, that's really where it is.
 [04/09/14 08:07] <number80> yup
 [04/09/14 08:08] <number80> I wish that discussion actually happened
 *upstream*
 [04/09/14 08:08] <Sparks> number80: It did.  The original complaintant
 filed a BZ ticket.
 [04/09/14 08:09] <number80> :/
 [04/09/14 08:10] <number80> I think that we won't be more disliked by the
 desktop team as we already are :)
 [04/09/14 08:10] <number80> s/think/guess/
 [04/09/14 08:12] <Sparks> number80: Maybe I'm crazy but I don't think it's
 very FOSS of us to be pushing Google Docs in Fedora.
 [04/09/14 08:13] <number80> I agree, but I understand the workstation
 people who want to bring an "usable" desktop to end-users
 [04/09/14 08:14] <number80> Besides, technically, we're not shipping
 proprietary code nor making GNOME unusable without proprietary services
 [04/09/14 08:14] <Sparks> So it's not usable without Google or Dropbox
 or...
 [04/09/14 08:14] <number80> is it ?
 [04/09/14 08:15] <number80> it might be crippled experience compared to
 stock GNOME, but not compared to older version ?
 [04/09/14 08:15] <Sparks> I've been running Fedora for many years and I've
 never thought "you know what this thing needs?  A link to Google and other
 non-FOSS stuff."
 [04/09/14 08:16] <number80> Yeah, I can't help thinking that the
 workstation product will end up being an independant downstream project
 [04/09/14 08:17] <number80> They could do an awesome FOSS based desktop,
 and we won't have to worry to keep it the fedora way
 [04/09/14 08:18] <number80> (If it happens, I would still use the good ol'
 Fedora desktop)
 [04/09/14 08:19] <number80> Breaking the nvidia drivers with the 4k kernel
 was the feature who kept me on Fedora ;)
 [04/09/14 08:19] <mjg59> Sparks: Is it any more or less FOSS to include a
 Twitter client?
 [04/09/14 08:20] <Sparks> mjg59: Like Pidgin?
 [04/09/14 08:21] <Sparks> err... not like Pidgin
 [04/09/14 08:21] <Sparks> mjg59: AFAIK, we don't have a Twitter client.
 We have software that *can* integrate with Twitter but also integrates
 with other services, too.
 [04/09/14 08:22] <Sparks> mjg59: The point is that we aren't pointing
 people to Twitter on the desktop when they are trying to pull up terminal
 (or another T).
 [04/09/14 08:23] <mjg59> Sparks: No, we definitely ship applications that
 do nothing but speak to Twitter
 [04/09/14 08:24] <Sparks> mjg59: Oddly enough, when I type "twitter" into
 my computer they don't come up.
 [04/09/14 08:24] <mjg59> Sparks: That's not the question I was asking
 [04/09/14 08:25] <Sparks> mjg59: That's the question I was answering
 [04/09/14 08:25] <Sparks> mjg59: I see how you are trying to frame the
 arguement but that's not the question.
 [04/09/14 08:25] <mjg59> If these appeared in the software center but not
 in the activities overview, would you have an objection?
 [04/09/14 08:26] <Sparks> yes
 [04/09/14 08:26] <Sparks> for several reasons
 [04/09/14 08:26] <Sparks> These "apps" are bypassing the normal review
 process for software.
 [04/09/14 08:26] <mjg59> What distinction are you drawing between a Free
 Software web browser that points to a non-free web service and a Free
 Software Twitter client that points to a non-free web service?
 [04/09/14 08:27] <mjg59> Well, no, they're not. All the code running on
 the user's system has been reviewed.
 [04/09/14 08:27] <Sparks> Oh really?  Show me the review for Google DOcs
 [04/09/14 08:28] <mjg59> I believe Firefox was part of core before the
 review process was implemented
 [04/09/14 08:28] <mjg59> But ok, you make a distinction there. Where's the
 review for Google.com?
 [04/09/14 08:28] <Sparks> I'm looking in the software thingy and see
 Google Docs.  Where is the review for that?
 [04/09/14 08:29] <Sparks> We aren't shipping google.com.
 [04/09/14 08:29] <mjg59> Sparks: We're not shipping Google Docs, either.
 Have you actually installed it?
 [04/09/14 08:29] <Sparks> We are shipping something called Google Drive
 (sorry, not Google Docs).
 [04/09/14 08:30] <mjg59> Sparks: Click install. Run it. What happens?
 [04/09/14 08:30] <Sparks> Yes, I know what it does.  It's pointing people
 to a proprietary alternative to FOSS software that we already ship.
 [04/09/14 08:30] <mjg59> Yes. Just like Firefox does.
 [04/09/14 08:30] <Sparks> No
 [04/09/14 08:31] <mjg59> We ship Firefox configured to use a proprietary
 web search engine
 [04/09/14 08:31] <Sparks> You have to opt-in to get Firefox to do non-FOSS
 stuff.  This solutions are being pushed to the user.
 [04/09/14 08:31] <mjg59> Open firefox. Type some words (not a URL) into
 the address bar. Hit enter. What happens?
 [04/09/14 08:31] <Sparks> Yes, I dislike the search function in Firefox
 and think it should be changed/fixed.
 [04/09/14 08:32] <mjg59> Ok. So why is shipping any software that uses a
 non-free web service acceptable?
 [04/09/14 08:32] <Sparks> Right now the software center is pushing non-
 FOSS stuff.  Firefox isn't advertising non-FOSS stuff.
 [04/09/14 08:32] <mjg59> Why is the Google Drive web app any less free
 than Mitter?
 [04/09/14 08:33] <Sparks> I've don't know what mitter is (neither does the
 software center).
 [04/09/14 08:33] <Sparks> So where is Microsoft Office Live in here?
 [04/09/14 08:34] <mjg59> Ok. Birdie.
 [04/09/14 08:34] <Sparks> I mean, if we're offering up Google Drive then
 why not Microsoft's solution?
 [04/09/14 08:34] <mjg59> That's a separate question
 [04/09/14 08:34] <mjg59> I'm trying to figure out the distinction you draw
 between one set of proprietary web services and another set
 [04/09/14 08:34] <Sparks> They are both on equal footing WRT licensing,
 EULA, and restrictive access.
 [04/09/14 08:36] <mjg59> How is the existence of Birdie not pushing
 proprietary web services?
 [04/09/14 08:39] <Sparks> The distinction is that we aren't pushing a
 proprietary solution simply by having an application that can access that
 proprietary solution.  But when we start showing in our software store
 proprietary software (SaaS) then we're actively pointing people away from
 the FOSS that we already ship.
 [04/09/14 08:39] <Sparks> mjg59: Birdie is GPLv3.  What's Google Docs?
 [04/09/14 08:40] <Sparks> mjg59: The distinction is that GNOME is now
 pushing SaaS.  I'll extend my view to the end product, not the metadata
 file that points people to that solution.
 [04/09/14 08:40] <mjg59> Sparks: The bit of Google Docs that ends up on
 the user's system is GPLv2
 [04/09/14 08:42] <Sparks> mjg59: I thought it was CC0?
 [04/09/14 08:42] <mjg59> Epiphany? No.
 [04/09/14 08:42] <Sparks> no
 [04/09/14 08:43] <Sparks> the metadata that points people to these
 solutions is CC0.  The link (which all programs have) should be
 negligable.
 [04/09/14 08:44] <mjg59> I don't understand.
 [04/09/14 08:44] <mjg59> In both cases (Drive and Twitter) the actual
 client code running on the user system is GPL
 [04/09/14 08:44] <Sparks> When GNOME started pushing SaaS solutions they
 changed the very way we have to start thinking about what we ship.
 [04/09/14 08:45] <Sparks> This isn't about epiphany.  It's about how
 epiphany knows where to go.
 [04/09/14 08:45] <mjg59> In both cases that client code does nothing
 meaningful without a proprietary web service
 [04/09/14 08:46] <mjg59> Why is Birdie acceptable to you?
 [04/09/14 08:46] <Sparks> In one case the software is proprietary SaaS.
 [04/09/14 08:46] <mjg59> Which software?
 [04/09/14 08:46] <Sparks> The software is properly licensed.
 [04/09/14 08:46] <Sparks> Birdie
 [04/09/14 08:46] <mjg59> And Epiphany is also properly licensed for
 distribution in Fedora
 [04/09/14 08:47] <Sparks> Google Drive is not
 [04/09/14 08:47] <mjg59> But in both cases under discussion, the free
 software does not do what the user wants without the presence of a non-
 free web service
 [04/09/14 08:47] <Sparks> Again, Google Drive is not.  That's what I see
 on my system.
 [04/09/14 08:47] <mjg59> But Google Drive doesn't end up on your system.
 [04/09/14 08:48] <mjg59> All the software on your system continues to be
 free
 [04/09/14 08:48] <number80> The point is to know if you're compelled to
 use proprietary services or run proprietary code in your own box :/
 [04/09/14 08:48] <mjg59> Well, arguably this is an improvement
 [04/09/14 08:48] <number80> if it's no, the only thing we could object is
 using logo or trademarks :/
 [04/09/14 08:48] <Sparks> But you are actively advertising a proprietary
 solution.  Birdie isn't doing that.
 [04/09/14 08:48] <mjg59> The software center makes it clear that the web
 apps are proprietary
 [04/09/14 08:49] <mjg59> But we make no such clarification for tools that
 depend on proprietary web services
 [04/09/14 08:49] <mjg59> Sparks: How is Birdie not actively advertising a
 proprietary solution?
 [04/09/14 08:49] <Sparks> And if they are proprietary then they have no
 business being in the software center by default.
 [04/09/14 08:49] <Sparks> Because Birdie isn't called Twitter.
 [04/09/14 08:50] <mjg59> So despite it mentioning Twitter in its
 description, turning up when you search for Twitter and not working unless
 Twitter is available, it's not advertising a proprietary solution?
 [04/09/14 08:50] <Sparks> If you saw Birdie you wouldn't automatically
 think that we're pushing the Twitter service.
 [04/09/14 08:51] <mjg59> I don't think seeing anything in Fedora means
 we're pushing it
 [04/09/14 08:51] <Sparks> Not like Google Drive was as it came up without
 my even having to type Google
 [04/09/14 08:51] <Sparks> If anything pushing services makes it worse for
 Fedora
 [04/09/14 08:51] <mjg59> How are you seeing Google Drive without you even
 typing Google?
 [04/09/14 08:52] <Sparks> We're completely bypassing all FOSS solutions
 and going right to a proprietary solution.
 [04/09/14 08:52] <Sparks> If I type "write" to get LibreOffice Writer I
 see "Google Drive".
 [04/09/14 08:52] <mjg59> Could you please stay on a single line of
 discussion?
 [04/09/14 08:53] <Sparks> I'm just trying to answer your wide ranging
 questions
 [04/09/14 08:53] <number80> Sparks: this is a bug
 [04/09/14 08:53] <misc> mhh I think that in the case of google doc, there
 is lots of JS running on user systeml, while for twitter client, there is
 not
 [04/09/14 08:53] <mjg59> Sparks: If you type that where?
 [04/09/14 08:53] <number80> misc: the same when you're browsing the web
 [04/09/14 08:53] <misc> number80: yep
 [04/09/14 08:53] <Sparks> meta key
 [04/09/14 08:54] <mjg59> 14:25 < mjg59> If these appeared in the software
 center but not in the activities overview, would you have an objection?
 [04/09/14 08:54] <mjg59> 14:26 < Sparks> yes
 [04/09/14 08:54] <rdieter> this discussion is partly why I think worrying
 about webservices (yet?) is a lost cause (ie, it is a deep rathole to get
 lost in, and never dig your way out of)
 [04/09/14 08:54] <Sparks> mjg59: Just answering your questions.
 [04/09/14 08:54] <mjg59> So let's ignore that because it's not why you're
 unhappy
 [04/09/14 08:54] <number80> as long as you're not required to use
 proprietary services, we can only accept this
 [04/09/14 08:55] <number80> wether we like or not
 [04/09/14 08:55] <Sparks> rdieter: Which is why we shouldn't be
 advertising things we aren't shipping.
 [04/09/14 08:55] <rdieter> Sparks: I'm saying the boat has already sailed
 [04/09/14 08:56] <Sparks> rdieter: No, it's still firmly attached to the
 pier.  This is the first time I've seen us provide links to proprietary
 solutions in our products by default.
 [04/09/14 08:56] <misc> number80: well, that's a bit a broad statement,
 when do we decide that we are required to use them ?
 [04/09/14 08:56] <Sparks> rdieter: And the first time for the original
 complaintant as well.
 [04/09/14 08:56] <rdieter> (I think, I'm still trying to wrap my brain
 around what my gut is telling me)
 [04/09/14 08:57] <rdieter> Sparks: theres a horrible slippery slope if you
 want to start categorizing webservices as ok or not
 [04/09/14 08:57] <number80> misc: a simple rule of thumb, any feature you
 were previously able to use without a proprietary services should still
 work
 [04/09/14 08:57] <Sparks> rdieter: By having these solutions readily
 available, by default, in our software center then we are actively saying
 that Fedora is okay with the use of proprietary solutions as long as they
 aren't on your computer.
 [04/09/14 08:57] <misc> number80: that doesn't take in account new feature
 [04/09/14 08:57] <misc> number80: nor when is "previosuly"
 [04/09/14 08:58] <Sparks> rdieter: Agreed and thus we shouldn't be
 offering up any webservices in our products.
 [04/09/14 08:58] <number80> misc: sure
 [04/09/14 08:58] <mjg59> Sparks: We already actively say that
 [04/09/14 08:58] <misc> number80: by that count, it would have been ok to
 have nvidia, since I couldn't have used with free driver before for 3d :)
 [04/09/14 08:58] <Sparks> mjg59: We actively say what?
 [04/09/14 08:58] <rdieter> Sparks: ok, that's the problem to solve then.
 waiting for your comprehensive proposal on how to handle that. :)
 [04/09/14 08:58] <mjg59> Sparks: That we're fine with the use of
 proprietary solutions as long as they aren't on your computer
 [04/09/14 08:58] <Sparks> rdieter: Don't do it.
 [04/09/14 08:59] <rdieter> so lets bounce all twitter clients, as mjg59
 mentioned as an example
 [04/09/14 08:59] <EvilBob> Hang tight with me a second as I have not been
 following this much at all. Sparks you use the words "in our software
 center" is it a Fedora™ software center or does it come from someplace
 else actually like GNOME?
 [04/09/14 08:59] <Sparks> rdieter: The ones that can do twitter or only do
 twitter?
 [04/09/14 08:59] <rdieter> only twitter
 [04/09/14 08:59] <number80> misc: that would have broken another rule
 which is not to ship proprietary code within fedora ;)
 [04/09/14 08:59] <mjg59> I start Firefox on a fresh install. There's a box
 with "Google" in the top right corner.
 [04/09/14 09:00] <Sparks> EvilBob: It's a "software center" program.
 These things don't show up in yum.  They are being pulled in with a file
 in GNOME.
 [04/09/14 09:00] <mjg59> How is that not promoting non-free web services?
 [04/09/14 09:00] <number80> mjg59: i agree with you for the web search
 feature (and the same goes with GNOME Online Accounts)
 [04/09/14 09:00] <Sparks> mjg59: I agree.
 [04/09/14 09:00] <EvilBob> Sparks: So it's not "our software center" it's
 GNOME's software center
 [04/09/14 09:00] <Sparks> EvilBob: Correct
 [04/09/14 09:00] <EvilBob> Sparks: So what business is it of Fedora™s?
 [04/09/14 09:01] <Sparks> EvilBob: AFAIK, GNOME is the only thing that has
 a "software center"
 [04/09/14 09:01] <Sparks> EvilBob: Because we're slapping our trademarks
 on it and shipping it?
 [04/09/14 09:01] <mjg59> Sparks: So any ruling we make about the
 availability of web apps in Gnome should also apply to Firefox?
 [04/09/14 09:01] <number80> since we could manipulate the metadata,
 couldn't we add a vrms-like package that allows us to ship a crap-free
 fedora by default ?
 [04/09/14 09:02] <Sparks> mjg59: I would think that any ruling should
 apply to Fedora
 [04/09/14 09:02] <number80> people who'd want to see proprietary apps
 could just remove it and we're done
 [04/09/14 09:02] <mjg59> Sparks: Ok. So the desktop team aren't actually
 doing something amazingly new here, they're just exposing what's been
 status-quo in Fedora?
 [04/09/14 09:02] <misc> what about deciding on case by case, seeing if the
 removal cripple the product or not ?
 [04/09/14 09:02] <rdieter> I'm starting to think if we want to be on the
 safe side of things, indeed, software center should indeed limit itself to
 fedora-only offerings (at least by default).  I think our prior decision
 about 3rd party stuff allows for opt-in for additional content.
 [04/09/14 09:02] <Sparks> mjg59: Honestly, I'd be okay with having a check
 box somewhere that allows people to opt-in to seeing these solutions.
 [04/09/14 09:02] <EvilBob> If you want to be upset with and pissed off at
 the GNOMEs then go for it, just don't take ownership on behalf of Fedora
 in what they ship
 [04/09/14 09:03] <misc> ( cause I think firefox without a search engine
 would be crippled, I do not think software center would be less useful
 without them )
 [04/09/14 09:03] <mjg59> EvilBob: It's our default desktop. Its behaviour
 is fundamental to how users perceive Fedora.
 [04/09/14 09:03] <Sparks> EvilBob: Yeah, what mjg59 said.
 [04/09/14 09:03] <mjg59> misc: "You can't use proprietary web services
 unless it would be really, really inconvenient" is difficult to justify
 from an ethical perspective
 [04/09/14 09:03] <EvilBob> mjg59: I don't disagree but who are we to tell
 them what they can and can't do?
 [04/09/14 09:03] <Sparks> misc: There are alternative search engines for
 Firefox
 [04/09/14 09:03] <mjg59> EvilBob: We're the Fedora board.
 [04/09/14 09:04] <EvilBob> mjg59: DO we tell KDE what they can and can't
 do?
 [04/09/14 09:04] <mjg59> EvilBob: Yes?
 [04/09/14 09:04] <rdieter> Sparks: ok, I think I'm swayed enough that this
 needs further scrutiny.  I'm with you for now.
 [04/09/14 09:04] <EvilBob> SHould we?
 [04/09/14 09:04] <mjg59> EvilBob: Yes?
 [04/09/14 09:04] <mjg59> If KDE wanted to ship non-free code, we'd say no
 [04/09/14 09:04] <Sparks> EvilBob: There is no problem with GNOME creating
 their own downstream spin and calling it GNOME Desktop (or whatever).
 [04/09/14 09:05] <misc> mjg59: it is not that we do not permit to use
 them, but more that we do not advertise them
 [04/09/14 09:05] <mjg59> Sparks: I think you'll have difficulty convincing
 people that removing Google from Firefox is for the good of Fedora
 [04/09/14 09:05] <Sparks> rdieter: It's a tough argument to frame and I'm
 generally bad at framing my frustration (which makes me frustrated).
 [04/09/14 09:05] <misc> mjg59: people are kidna still free to do that
 [04/09/14 09:05] <EvilBob> Sparks: not until Red Hat trademarks the word
 Desktop
 [04/09/14 09:05] <EvilBob> ;)
 [04/09/14 09:05] <Sparks> mjg59: *shrug*
 [04/09/14 09:05] <Sparks> EvilBob: You can't trademark "Desktop"
 [04/09/14 09:05] <Sparks> so you won't have to worry about htat.
 [04/09/14 09:05] <Sparks> that
 [04/09/14 09:05] <number80> Someone trademarked the word "windows" ;)
 [04/09/14 09:06] <misc> another softer solution could be "we are ok, but
 we do not want to have the feature to be hilighted" ?
 [04/09/14 09:06] <EvilBob> number80: Shhhh
 [04/09/14 09:06] <Sparks> number80: Yes, in a very particular case.
 Notice they didn't trademark "workstation"
 [04/09/14 09:06] <number80> misc: +1
 [04/09/14 09:06] <EvilBob> number80: Don't disrupt his roll
 [04/09/14 09:06] <EvilBob> LOL
 [04/09/14 09:06] <number80> :)
 [04/09/14 09:07] <Sparks> EvilBob: Seriously. I'll happily send you the
 law book that talks about this stuff.  It'll put you right to sleep.
 [04/09/14 09:07] <Sparks> number80: You don't see "windows" trademarked
 for ...  you know... a clear building material
 [04/09/14 09:07] <Sparks> number80: But that's a different topic
 altogether.
 [04/09/14 09:07] <misc> so you could trademark desktop for a car :)
 [04/09/14 09:08] <Sparks> misc: Probably
 [04/09/14 09:08] <misc> ( then my desktop crashed would take a new meaning
 )
 [04/09/14 09:08] <number80> mmm
 [04/09/14 09:08] <Sparks> misc: +1
 [04/09/14 09:08] <EvilBob> We as Fedora™ are consumers of the upstream
 products. We can choose to use these upstream products or not. I do not
 feel it is our place to tell them what they can or can't do with their
 product. We can tell them why we choose to not use them however.
 [04/09/14 09:08] <Sparks> misc: It's all rather silly, really.  It has to
 be unique and then it can't become common.
 [04/09/14 09:08] <EvilBob> Good luck dropping GNOME.
 [04/09/14 09:08] <misc> Sparks: I know
 [04/09/14 09:09] <number80> This is probably an evil plan from the GNOME
 OS folks
 [04/09/14 09:09] <rdieter> EvilBob: I dont think thats an accurate
 description of what is being discussed.  it's not an all or nothing deal
 here
 [04/09/14 09:09] <Sparks> misc: I think I'll go have some Jello... errr..
 I mean gelatan (I can't spell it so Jell-O it is!).
 [04/09/14 09:09] <mjg59> EvilBob: We're not choosing to not use Gnome
 [04/09/14 09:10] <Sparks> EvilBob: Plus, it's all FOSS so we can change
 anything we like in Gnome and ship it.
 [04/09/14 09:10] <EvilBob> rdieter: You are probably correct, but I am so
 used to seeing that I assumed it.
 [04/09/14 09:10] <EvilBob> Sparks: We can... but SHOULD we?
 [04/09/14 09:10] <EvilBob> mjg59: Why not?
 [04/09/14 09:11] <EvilBob> mjg59: Don't get me wrong I am a happy GNOME3
 /GNOME-Shell user.
 [04/09/14 09:11] <Sparks> EvilBob: Sure, why not?  We customize the
 desktop art, why not the functionality to make things "perfect"?
 [04/09/14 09:12] <EvilBob> If all y'all want to flex your muscles and be
 tough guys, then do it, follow through... "GNOME we don't like how you
 have done things and the way you are going, have a nice day"
 [04/09/14 09:12] <Sparks> EvilBob: I did have a question I was going to
 ask in #fedora but since you're here...  Are you running GNOME 3.12?  I'm
 seeing something wierd with my terminal window.
 [04/09/14 09:12] <EvilBob> Sparks: No, I don't like the  copr idea
 [04/09/14 09:12] <Sparks> EvilBob: Fair enough
 [04/09/14 09:13] <Sparks> EvilBob: I don't either but that's where the
 bits were...
 [04/09/14 09:16] <EvilBob> Sparks: So your issue about "Google Drive"
 could be solved with the addition of two words I think if it became "Free
 Google Drive Client" would that be acceptable?
 [04/09/14 09:17] * EvilBob hates the way they "rename" things for their
 pretty tools as it is.
 [04/09/14 09:18] <mjg59> EvilBob: Because the workstation WG has decided
 to use Gnome.
 [04/09/14 09:19] <EvilBob> mjg59: But as was pointed out already, so what
 you are the Fedora™ Board
 [04/09/14 09:19] <EvilBob> mjg59: It's pretty ironic that the GNOMEs that
 make up most of the "Workstation WG" picked GNOME...
 [04/09/14 09:19] <mjg59> EvilBob: The choice of Gnome is a technical
 decision. It's not the board's place to overrule it.
 [04/09/14 09:20] <EvilBob> "technical" I can buy, Technical I can not.
 [04/09/14 09:21] <EvilBob> Hell even calling it a financial decision I can
 stomach a lot more than calling it a technical decision
 [04/09/14 09:22] <EvilBob> At least it's not hidden behind a lie that way
 [04/09/14 09:22] <EvilBob> ;)
 [04/09/14 09:23] <jreznik> well, it should go far beyond gnome only
 [04/09/14 09:24] <jreznik> the platform is going to be more technology
 agnostic
 [04/09/14 09:24] <jreznik> and I hope we will get this in the upper level
 too one day
 [04/09/14 09:24] <number80> EvilBob: not everyone here has a certain
 person as their N+2 ;)
 [04/09/14 09:25] <number80> even if he were mine, I'm not used to be
 "nice" with my own bosses ;)
 [04/09/14 09:26] <EvilBob> ;)
 [04/09/14 09:32] <EvilBob> number80: I got fired from my last full time
 job a decade ago for telling my boss what I thought, BEST thing that ever
 happened to me.
 [04/09/14 09:33] <EvilBob> Well it was never clear if it was for telling
 him what I thought or for busting the lock out of his office door when he
 would not answer it...
 [04/09/14 09:34] <number80> well, currently waiting to move to the next
 job
 }}}

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Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/board/ticket/182#comment:11>
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