Am Mittwoch, den 22.02.2012, 18:21 -0500 schrieb Paul W. Frields: > On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 10:55:57PM +0100, Christoph Wickert wrote: > > In the Board meeting today we agreed to collect all remaining questions > > about the Trademark guidelines draft from > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pchestek/TMGuidelinesDraft > > and send them to Pam or Fedora Legal. > > > > While I agree to most of what is written or at least understand why it's > > necessary to follow a clearly defined procedure, I am having serious > > problems with the 'Ambassador giveaways' section. It reads: > > > > > If the design is simply an unmodified Fedora logo, word-mark, or > > > previously approved design, with nothing else, the merchandise is > > > appropriate, and the material type/quality is acceptable, the request > > > will be granted, and the Fedora Ambassador will be given a one-time > > > permission to produce the specified non-software promotional goods in > > > the amount requested. Any other request must have Board approval, and > > > may require that the Ambassador produce a two item proof batch of the > > > proposed non-software promotional goods. Please note that designs must > > > be in compliance with the Fedora Logo Usage Guidelines, and all > > > requests must be made at least one month before expected production of > > > the non-software promotional goods. Trademark approval, if granted, > > > does not constitute any budgetary or financial agreement to produce > > > non-software promotional goods. > > > > AFAICS this means > > 1. Pre-approved design will be approved more or less automatically, > > nevertheless the permission is only for one time and we need to > > run in circles for every new batch even if absolutely nothing > > has changed. Is that true? We are using the same Ambassador polo > > shirts for ages now and neither the design not the quality has > > changed. It's still produced by the same vendor from the same > > master with the same material. > > As always IANAL. Having said that... > > The way I read the above, the Board isn't prohibited from granting a > long-term or continuing approval based on using the same vendor, > materials, etc. The way I read it, the provision prevents the > *assumption* that there is an automatic or long-term approval, unless > the Board says otherwise. long-term approvals are not mentioned anywhere, and if a guidelines only mentions one-time approvals, my understanding is that the board can only give one-time permissions. > > 2. In most cases it is not possible to produce two item proof, say > > two pens or shirts. What to do? > > 3. What do we actually do with the two proof items? Do we send them > > to Raleigh where they will be archived? > > This provision states "may require," not "will require." Should be no > problem in theory or practice, since the Board should not be requiring > the impossible. I'm afraid we are having a different perspective. While you seem to be more optimistic, I am very careful. If something is unclear I always try to prepare for the worst - especially when it has to do with lawyers. The EMEA community had some bad experiences in the past. > > 4. Would photos be sufficient? > > 5. Would similar items by the same vendor be sufficient as > > proof? > > See above, but I believe the Board has latitude to say "yes" to > specific cases here. see above :) > > 6. If it is possible, who will pay for the two item proof batch? 2 > > polo shirts are over 50 EUR, with shipping to the US this is ~ > > 60 EUR. Or what about goodies that don't get approved? Will the > > community members have to take over the costs? > > IMHO no community member should have to front money for proofs or > other Fedora costs. Sometimes people do this voluntarily but there's > no reason the Fedora budget can't reimburse. If the money is needed > up front, it should be no problem, as long as it's discussed in > advance with the budgetholder. I imagine no one would be happy if 2 > proofs of a Fedora Ferrari were charged to our budget. (I didn't say > no one would be happy if they *showed up*, it's just paying for them > that would be sticky!) ;-) I like that idea of a Fedora Ferrari. ;) Jokes aside: We agree that contributors should not pay, but what if? This may be a corner case of the new TLA but I want to be prepared. > > 7. Can we get rid of the one month clause? Last year we did polo > > shirts 5 days before Linux-Tag and they were delivered directly > > to the event. There was no time for an approval and even if we > > are not in a hurry "at least one month" seems way too long for > > me. > > My question here is, if that clause is eliminated, would there need to > be some provision for quality checking in urgent situations? In other > words, if making an order for next-day shipping eliminates the need to > check quality, would that undercut the entire section? I don't think > you're suggesting that, Christoph, I'm just pointing out the follow-on > question that occurred to me. I'm afraid only legal can answer that question. Theoretically this can be used to bypass the requirement, but - just like you do with the board - I like to trust in our contributors and their common sense. What I have in mind is something like: If pre-approved material is produced again without changes in design or quality, there should be no further requirements: No proof items, no time limits and all that. We should just update the old ticket that was used for approval with a note "On {date} the {region} ambassadors ordered another {quantity} of {item}." for tracking purposes. I'm not even sure this is needed, as think we are basically dealing with a question of prior-art, so only the first appearance of an item should really matter. On the other hand: If we can do approved swag without new approval, basically all approvals are permanent unless explicitly withdrawn. I think this should be the default, but I'm not sure if it causes a problem for legal. > > 8. Is legal really to decide what "acceptable quality" is? > > I don't think the intention is for Legal to examine all swag by > default, but rather that the Board and Legal reserve the *right* to > look at granting or not granting swag production based on quality. > AIUI this is something a trademark owner's obliged to do. In practice > I expect the Board would be comfortable with an Ambassador > representing the quality of the goods as being sufficient. > Ambassadors have always done an excellent job at judging this IMHO. I agree, the ambassadors have done a good job here and we should trust them. And IHMO we should trust them more than the board or legal. I generally do not trust lawyers (unless I pay them) and I recall some board members picked on some swag for reasons no ambassadors and very few people in the community could understand. It's not that I like bad design and poor quality, but in the end the decision should be up to the people who hand out the swag on events. Regards, Christoph _______________________________________________ advisory-board mailing list advisory-board@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/advisory-board
